Situational experiments
le Lun 31 Déc  12:22
This thread will relate all the discoveries made by practical experiments made with fixed and controlled parameters, in order to understand the real behaviour of the SH3 damage system.
As in science, we will try to demonstrate everything, even the apparent most obvious facts, because the devil is always in the details, especially in SH3 !
QUESTIONS TO SOLVE :
 What is the scale of the explosive area ?
 DP released = random number between MinEF and MaxEF ???
 If AL of the unit is greater than AL of the hit box ???
 If the 3D object number = 6 ?
.....
As in science, we will try to demonstrate everything, even the apparent most obvious facts, because the devil is always in the details, especially in SH3 !
QUESTIONS TO SOLVE :
 What is the scale of the explosive area ?
 DP released = random number between MinEF and MaxEF ???
 If AL of the unit is greater than AL of the hit box ???
 If the 3D object number = 6 ?
.....
Re: Situational experiments
le Sam 12 Jan  21:54
What happens when AL is higher than AP ?
===================================================
REMINDERS (cf. VOCABULARY in the "Basics and therory" thread) :
DP = damage points (of the VD)
AL = armor level of the unit or a box
AP = max armor penetration value of a VD
^A = delta A = ALAP
Conditions of the experiment :
 the VD's explosive area is "homogeneous" : minEF=maxEF (=DP) and min radius = max radius = 0,1 (very small)
 the tested object is a 3D model whose number=4, and is the subpart of a unit whose AL=40.
 the zone type will show a particle effect as soon as 10% of its HP are destroyed.
A very important number of experiences have been done with different values for the zone type's HP and AL, and I'm publishing only the most interesting ones.
____
Results :
#1
ZONE TYPE
HP=1
AL=73 (^A=33)
destructible
VD
DP=100
AP=40
RESULT
nearly impossible to smash or damage the object (about 200 shells).
____
#2
ZONE TYPE
HP=50
AL=72 (^A=32)
destructible
VD
DP=50
AP=40
RESULT
random number of shots to smash the object (from 1 to infinite)
_______
CONCLUSIONS
 When AL>AP, the result of an impact is a random choice between only 2 distinct solutions : a) all the DP are released, and b) not a single DP is released.
 It appears that the higher ^A, the more probable the second solution (no DP is released).
===================================================
REMINDERS (cf. VOCABULARY in the "Basics and therory" thread) :
DP = damage points (of the VD)
AL = armor level of the unit or a box
AP = max armor penetration value of a VD
^A = delta A = ALAP
Conditions of the experiment :
 the VD's explosive area is "homogeneous" : minEF=maxEF (=DP) and min radius = max radius = 0,1 (very small)
 the tested object is a 3D model whose number=4, and is the subpart of a unit whose AL=40.
 the zone type will show a particle effect as soon as 10% of its HP are destroyed.
A very important number of experiences have been done with different values for the zone type's HP and AL, and I'm publishing only the most interesting ones.
____
Results :
#1
ZONE TYPE
HP=1
AL=73 (^A=33)
destructible
VD
DP=100
AP=40
RESULT
nearly impossible to smash or damage the object (about 200 shells).
____
#2
ZONE TYPE
HP=50
AL=72 (^A=32)
destructible
VD
DP=50
AP=40
RESULT
random number of shots to smash the object (from 1 to infinite)
_______
CONCLUSIONS
 When AL>AP, the result of an impact is a random choice between only 2 distinct solutions : a) all the DP are released, and b) not a single DP is released.
 It appears that the higher ^A, the more probable the second solution (no DP is released).
Re: Situational experiments
le Dim 13 Jan  13:38
Let's continue with experiences to try to understand what happens when AL>AP.
____
#3
ZONE TYPE
HP=50
AL=45 (^A=25)
destructible
VD
DP=100
AP=20
RESULT
the object is smashed with 1, 2 or 3 shots.
____
#4
ZONE TYPE
HP=50
AL=45 (^A=25)
destructible
VD
DP=50
AP=20
RESULT
impossible to smash or damage the object.
______
So, it appears that DPHP or the only DP value is also a factor which determines if the object can be smashed/damaged when AL>AP.
____
#3
ZONE TYPE
HP=50
AL=45 (^A=25)
destructible
VD
DP=100
AP=20
RESULT
the object is smashed with 1, 2 or 3 shots.
____
#4
ZONE TYPE
HP=50
AL=45 (^A=25)
destructible
VD
DP=50
AP=20
RESULT
impossible to smash or damage the object.
______
So, it appears that DPHP or the only DP value is also a factor which determines if the object can be smashed/damaged when AL>AP.
Re: Situational experiments
le Mar 15 Jan  15:50
From my last experiments, here are the values I've found for the DP min/max, depending on AL and AP (HP is fixed at 70).
DP min = max DP value to have zero chance to release the DP to the target.
DP max = min DP value to have 100% chance to release the DP to the target.
DP ét = DP max  DP min
DP med = average value
These values seem to be logical all together, and we can already build a theory, which we will compare to a new serie of experiments.
THEORY v.1 :
DP med = (ALAP) x 4  AP/10 + 3.
DP ét = 1,4 AP + 6.
DP min = max DP value to have zero chance to release the DP to the target.
DP max = min DP value to have 100% chance to release the DP to the target.
DP ét = DP max  DP min
DP med = average value
These values seem to be logical all together, and we can already build a theory, which we will compare to a new serie of experiments.
THEORY v.1 :
DP med = (ALAP) x 4  AP/10 + 3.
DP ét = 1,4 AP + 6.
Re: Situational experiments
le Mer 16 Jan  14:15
I've tested with the following AP and AL values (HP still at 70) :
The white and light blue values are calculated from the AP and AL values with my theory.
Well, the DP min/max calculated values are exactly correct in game !
Conclusions :
1. My theory is right, until we can demonstrate the contrary.
2. Even if AL=AP or AL<AP, there is a chance that the VD doesn't damage the target with low enough DP.
3. Finally, with another series of experiments, it appears very clearly that HP is not took into account to determine the probability of damage.
The white and light blue values are calculated from the AP and AL values with my theory.
Well, the DP min/max calculated values are exactly correct in game !
Conclusions :
1. My theory is right, until we can demonstrate the contrary.
2. Even if AL=AP or AL<AP, there is a chance that the VD doesn't damage the target with low enough DP.
3. Finally, with another series of experiments, it appears very clearly that HP is not took into account to determine the probability of damage.
Re: Situational experiments
le Ven 18 Jan  0:35
According to the remarks by Observer that I found on the now defunct kickinbak.com forum, the factors to be considered for SH4 armor penetration are:
PT = Penetration Threshold, as defined in the [Global Params] section of zones.cfg
ALF = Armor Leveling Factor, as defined in the [Global Params] section of zones.cfg
AP = Armor Penetration factor, as defines in the AmmoDamageInfo controller of any given shell's .ZON file
HP = Hit Points factor, a random number between MinEF and MaxEF, as defines in the AmmoDamageInfo controller of any given shell's .ZON file
The actual armor penetration power is calculated according to this formula:
Armor Penetration = (random number between 1PT and 1+PT)*AP + HP/ALF
Subsequent formulas:
Max Armor Penetration = (1+PT)*AP + MaxEF/ALF
Min Armor Penetration = (1PT)*AP + MinEF/ALF
For SH5, things might be a bit different; according to one of the devs quoted by TheDarkWraith:
See the link below and following posts on the subsim forum for more details on the formulas:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2084157#post2084157
PT = Penetration Threshold, as defined in the [Global Params] section of zones.cfg
ALF = Armor Leveling Factor, as defined in the [Global Params] section of zones.cfg
AP = Armor Penetration factor, as defines in the AmmoDamageInfo controller of any given shell's .ZON file
HP = Hit Points factor, a random number between MinEF and MaxEF, as defines in the AmmoDamageInfo controller of any given shell's .ZON file
The actual armor penetration power is calculated according to this formula:
Armor Penetration = (random number between 1PT and 1+PT)*AP + HP/ALF
Subsequent formulas:
Max Armor Penetration = (1+PT)*AP + MaxEF/ALF
Min Armor Penetration = (1PT)*AP + MinEF/ALF
For SH5, things might be a bit different; according to one of the devs quoted by TheDarkWraith:
TheDarkWraith a écrit:Instead of the currently four values governing damages (AmmoDamageInfo – Hitpoints, ArmorLevel, MinRadius, MaxRadius) we need a little more
AP – Armor Penetration
MinEF – Explosive Damage Factor – the HitPoints of old
MaxEF 
MinRange – as before, for calculating the damage done through explosion
MaxRange – as before, for calculating the damage done through explosion
In the calculus below, we may also use the value “A”, being the armor value of the considered object.
A projectile will deal damage:
Explosive damage (ED) – damage done by the explosion
ED = random (MinEF, MaxEF); will be modified for range as before.
Steps to check damage dealt by a projectile
projectile hits object O in part P
Penetration check
Penetration roll:
k = 0.2 – subject to change
x = random (k;+k)
Pen = AP * [1 + x]
Pen > = A results in penetration
If Penetration is successful: (else skip to 5)
4. Apply ED at point of impact, and skip to end; armor is ignored for penetrated object and all compartments inside it.
5. penetration was not successful:
6. apply explosion blast damage in impact point. Armor is considered as follows – for all objects in MaxRange, ED (corrected for range) is compared to 4 * A. If ED is greater, it is applied, to the object.
See the link below and following posts on the subsim forum for more details on the formulas:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2084157#post2084157
Re: Situational experiments
le Ven 18 Jan  12:52
Thank you very much for these documents !
There isn't any "Penetration Threshold" factor in SH3 Zones.cfg. But those formulas are interesting. If applied to SH3, this would be (if the DP are a random number (ED) between MinEF and MaxEF, which has to be proven and already seems wrong to me) :
AP power = AP + DP/AL
... with the idea behind which is that if the "AP power" calculated is inferior to the AL of the unit/box, then ED is not released to the unit/box.
This time, the "AP power" (here named "Pen") is calculated only from the AP :
AP power = AP * (1+x)
... and the same idea : if AP power >= AL, then ED is released.
____________________________
So far, as I understand it for now, it's a bit different in SH3 : the probability "P" of release of the ED depends on the DP value compared to DP min/max. With 0 and 1 for 0% and 100%, we have this formula :
P = (DP  DP min) / DP ét
__
Moreover, we have :
DP max = DP med + DP ét / 2
DP max = (ALAP) x 4  AP/10 + 3 + (1,4 AP + 6)/2
DP max = 4*AL  3,4*AP + 6
DP min = DP med  DP ét / 2
DP min = (ALAP) x 4  AP/10 + 3  (1,4 AP + 6)/2
DP min = 4*AL  4,8*AP
__
P = (DP  DP min) / DP ét
P = (DP  DP min) / (DP max  DP min)
P = (DP  4*AL + 4,8*AP) / (4*AL  3,4*AP + 6  4*AL + 4,8*AP)
P = (DP  4*AL + 4,8*AP) / (1,4*AP + 6)
Observer a écrit:The factors to be considered for SH4 armor penetration are:
PT = Penetration Threshold, as defined in the [Global Params] section of zones.cfg
ALF = Armor Leveling Factor, as defined in the [Global Params] section of zones.cfg
AP = Armor Penetration factor, as defines in the AmmoDamageInfo controller of any given shell's .ZON file
HP = Hit Points factor, a random number between MinEF and MaxEF, as defines in the AmmoDamageInfo controller of any given shell's .ZON file
The actual armor penetration power is calculated according to this formula:
Armor Penetration [power] = (random number between 1PT and 1+PT)*AP + HP/ALF
Subsequent formulas:
Max Armor Penetration [power]= (1+PT)*AP + MaxEF/ALF
Min Armor Penetration [power] = (1PT)*AP + MinEF/ALF
There isn't any "Penetration Threshold" factor in SH3 Zones.cfg. But those formulas are interesting. If applied to SH3, this would be (if the DP are a random number (ED) between MinEF and MaxEF, which has to be proven and already seems wrong to me) :
AP power = AP + DP/AL
... with the idea behind which is that if the "AP power" calculated is inferior to the AL of the unit/box, then ED is not released to the unit/box.
TheDarkWraith a écrit:Instead of the currently four values governing damages (AmmoDamageInfo – Hitpoints, ArmorLevel, MinRadius, MaxRadius) we need a little more
AP – Armor Penetration
MinEF – Explosive Damage Factor – the HitPoints of old
MaxEF 
MinRange – as before, for calculating the damage done through explosion
MaxRange – as before, for calculating the damage done through explosion
In the calculus below, we may also use the value “A”, being the armor value of the considered object.
A projectile will deal damage:
Explosive damage (ED) – damage done by the explosion
ED = random (MinEF, MaxEF); will be modified for range as before.
Steps to check damage dealt by a projectile
projectile hits object O in part P
Penetration check
Penetration roll:
k = 0.2 – subject to change
x = random (k;+k)
Pen = AP * [1 + x]
Pen > = A results in penetration
If Penetration is successful: (else skip to 5)
4. Apply ED at point of impact, and skip to end; armor is ignored for penetrated object and all compartments inside it.
5. penetration was not successful:
6. apply explosion blast damage in impact point. Armor is considered as follows – for all objects in MaxRange, ED (corrected for range) is compared to 4 * A. If ED is greater, it is applied, to the object.
This time, the "AP power" (here named "Pen") is calculated only from the AP :
AP power = AP * (1+x)
... and the same idea : if AP power >= AL, then ED is released.
____________________________
So far, as I understand it for now, it's a bit different in SH3 : the probability "P" of release of the ED depends on the DP value compared to DP min/max. With 0 and 1 for 0% and 100%, we have this formula :
P = (DP  DP min) / DP ét
__
Moreover, we have :
DP max = DP med + DP ét / 2
DP max = (ALAP) x 4  AP/10 + 3 + (1,4 AP + 6)/2
DP max = 4*AL  3,4*AP + 6
DP min = DP med  DP ét / 2
DP min = (ALAP) x 4  AP/10 + 3  (1,4 AP + 6)/2
DP min = 4*AL  4,8*AP
__
P = (DP  DP min) / DP ét
P = (DP  DP min) / (DP max  DP min)
P = (DP  4*AL + 4,8*AP) / (4*AL  3,4*AP + 6  4*AL + 4,8*AP)
P = (DP  4*AL + 4,8*AP) / (1,4*AP + 6)
Applications
le Ven 18 Jan  15:06
Now, let's take some original SH3 values.
The 88mm shell (UBoot's deckgun) :
Conclusion : Although both shells have different AP and DP values, they both can damage targets with an AL from 0 to 22 with P=1, and from 22 to 30 with 0<P<1. The difference will be on the area of the explosion and the DP released : the AP shell will release less DP and on a smaller surface than the HE shell. So, the AP shell is worse on every aspects than the HE shell, and can't pierce a better armour ! ... We will carry out an experience to confirm this point.
_____
The 15inch shell (Bismarckclass battleship) :
Conclusion : The AP shell is more effective in piercing armour than the HE shell, but the AA shell is also more effective in piercing armour than the HE shell and will release more DP, which is not logical at all.
The 88mm shell (UBoot's deckgun) :
Conclusion : Although both shells have different AP and DP values, they both can damage targets with an AL from 0 to 22 with P=1, and from 22 to 30 with 0<P<1. The difference will be on the area of the explosion and the DP released : the AP shell will release less DP and on a smaller surface than the HE shell. So, the AP shell is worse on every aspects than the HE shell, and can't pierce a better armour ! ... We will carry out an experience to confirm this point.
_____
The 15inch shell (Bismarckclass battleship) :
Conclusion : The AP shell is more effective in piercing armour than the HE shell, but the AA shell is also more effective in piercing armour than the HE shell and will release more DP, which is not logical at all.
Re: Situational experiments
le Ven 18 Jan  17:10
Admin a écrit:The [88mm] AP shell is worse on every aspects than the [88mm] HE shell, and can't pierce a better armour ! ... We will carry out an experience to confirm this point.
CONFIRMED
With AL=31, no damage can be inflicted to the box with both 88mm shells.
With AL=30, damage is inflicted with very low probability with both 88mm shells.
But ... the AL of the unit was 100. Now, I tried with AL = 10, and with AL = 31 for the box, I can damage (with a low probability) the box.... I think that it's probably due to the fact that if the unit is damaged, then the impacted box will be damaged too .... And maybe this is due to the fact that the 3D model's number is 4. All this has to be confirmed with new experiments !
Re: Situational experiments
le Ven 18 Jan  21:28
Now, this is something different !
UNIT
HP=25
AL=24
ZONE TYPE (for the box of the main part and the subpart)
HP=1
AL=100
destructible
VD
88mm AP and HE shells
RESULT
WOW !
UNIT
HP=25
AL=24
ZONE TYPE (for the box of the main part and the subpart)
HP=1
AL=100
destructible
VD
88mm AP and HE shells
RESULT
WOW !
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